Ep. 05 – How to Get Your Crafts Seen by Buyers

[00:00:00] Kam: welcome Jonathan Wall to the podcast. I am so glad that you have taken the time to come.

[00:00:07] Jonathan: My pleasure.

[00:00:08] Kam: I would love for you to share kind of a little bit about yourself and you know, what your, what a little bit of your history is to where you are now.

[00:00:18] Kam: Wow.

[00:00:18] Jonathan: Okay. Well, a little bit. I’m not gonna go the whole 48 years on you, but the past, the short version the note, the Cliff Notes version yeah, I’ve been doing marketing for about 20 years. I started literally turn of the century. Some guy I knew through. I was working at Bar in the evenings and this DJ came over to me and said, Oh, I’m thinking about having a website.

[00:00:42] Jonathan: Do you know anything about building websites? And I was like, you know, the back of my mind. I’m like, I have no idea. Sorry. From

[00:00:50] Kam: bartender to websites.

[00:00:53] Jonathan: Well, it was kind of, that was the evening thing. I had a little, yeah, just an evening gig going on the side. And yeah. Do you know anything about building websites?

[00:00:59] Jonathan: And I’m thinking. Can’t be that hard to learn. So yeah. Yeah, I’ve put a few, I lied my way into it. Basically funnily enough, I saw the business is still going, his business is still going. He’s still got the same logo and this is 20 years on. And I’m not saying it’s not dated in that time, but fortunately his website’s not the first one.

[00:01:18] Jonathan: The original one, but yeah, so that was really my baptism of fire learning how to build a website on your own. And those were the days where we had little animated gifts with little ringing sound when you went to the contact page and little texts going back and forth along the top of the page.

[00:01:33] Jonathan: And it was very cheesy. Everything

[00:01:35] Kam: in code, but

[00:01:36] Jonathan: Was that It was html. Yeah, it was all html. I think I was toying with flash, but then I kind of gave up because it was just too hard. And fortunately, flash is no longer a thing, really. Oh. We kind of forgotten that one. But yeah, it was all html.

[00:01:50] Jonathan: It was, you know, it was basic then, like five pages or something, so it wasn’t, but it, yeah, obviously it was a learning curve. So you take a book out and go, Well, okay, what does this do? And yeah, figuring it all out. But that was good. It was a good experience. But from there, I’ve done Brochures and as in printed catalogs, brochures done the photography side of things, video websites, a few community sites e-commerce sites.

[00:02:14] Jonathan: I have designed an ambulance. What else do I done? Yeah, so a varied career, I guess over the past 20 years. And as you know, now I’m launching the course, which kind of. I see so many people who have great ideas and they want to, they wanna build a business from it. They want their side hustle.

[00:02:32] Jonathan: You know, times are changing, times are challenging for a lot of people financially. You know, if you’ve got that information, you’ve got those products you wanna get out to the world. There’s what, 8 billion people out there, and a lot of them are on the website, on the internet. You know, building a website, getting it out there is definitely Relatively easy win, relatively inexpensive, or it can be.

[00:02:52] Jonathan: So yeah, my course is really, you know, letting people have that information, which I’ve kind of taught myself most of it over the 20 years and just, you know, giving them easy step by step instructions. Really. It’s really kind of a how to get started guide as much as anything. And I’m excited about it.

[00:03:10] Jonathan: It’s, I think it’s long over. You should be

[00:03:13] Kam: excited. I’m excited for you. So

[00:03:15] Jonathan: thanks for but

[00:03:16] Kam: yeah, it’s early days Now outta curiosity, does your marketing abilities kind of come from experience or did you have like schooling for design or anything like

[00:03:27] Jonathan: that? No, not at all. I guess I’ve always been creative.

[00:03:30] Jonathan: I studied that. I went to college, did an arts a level, I think. So when I was 18 my, my qualification But no it is really just, I enjoyed it. That was the one thing, the one subject at school I enjoyed. I don’t think I’ve ever been very good at it. From an art perspective, I’ve really wanted to, you know, one of these days I will find time and I will sit down with my watercolor paints and I will do this landscape that’s in my head on the seascapes and all the other things that I’ve got on my list of things to do.

[00:03:56] Jonathan: So yeah, I’ve always been naturally creative. I think it’s just with the marketing side of things, it’s having, they say the eye doesn’t, but, you know, there are rules of thirds and positioning and colors. It all lends itself because at the end of the day how people perceive you, they may not say, you know, I say good design is design that you don’t notice.

[00:04:17] Jonathan: If someone goes, Ooh, that’s ugly, then you’ve done a bad job, you know, from a design perspective. Yeah. So if you, if it’s natural, if it flows, Then for me that’s, I’ve done, you know, I’ve done what I’ve set out to do what my client hopefully wants me to do. So yeah it’s just been natural I guess finding.

[00:04:34] Jonathan: And then as you, cuz obviously the 20 years design as a whole has changed, Right? And on a consonance consonant basis it changes because, you know, looking at things, your side of Atlantic, there are. Definitely some websites which are, have got more of a stateside feel to it, if you like, or a Canadian feel to it.

[00:04:55] Jonathan: And then you’ve got more, which are maybe more European in, in some respects. So they’re quite interesting seeing that. It’s very

[00:05:03] Kam: interesting. But now you, but you have clients like on both sides of the pond, don’t you? You have clients everywhere?

[00:05:11] Jonathan: Currently, well, I’ve got a few yeah, I’ve got a few, like, kind of one man or one woman bands, entrepreneurs stateside.

[00:05:19] Jonathan: I’m, it’s funny I worked, I’ve done some work for Mercedes Benz over the past few years and I kind of, the start of the year, I ditched, well, I ditched them and they ditched me. It was kind of a mutual understanding. And. When, was it last month? Yeah, last month. They came back and they said we want more. Cause they’d employed somebody internally to kind of do a lot of what I was doing and yeah. So now they want me to carry on with that, which is, it’s nice. I’m not sure I’ve got enough time, but it’s nice. And obviously again, trying to focus on the course, gotta focus on Right.

[00:05:49] Kam: Well, and your course is perfect timing where I’m concerned because. I really want to help the, mostly the stay at home moms or, you know, the part-time working moms, that kind of thing. But she’s, you know, trying to raise her family and bring in money. You know, I’ve been there, I’ve been that mom and. There’s a lot of elements to having an online business, which are so different from 20 years ago, which, you know, 20 years ago you built the five pages or whatever, but you didn’t have to have the marketing that goes with it.

[00:06:28] Kam: Now, whether it, you know, here in the States or in the uk, I mean that the marketing is pretty similar and so she’s gonna need to know how to maneuver those, you know, different pieces. And you know, she’s already trying to raise those kids, but also. She’s got product that she’s trying to make and produce and sell.

[00:06:50] Kam: Trying to, you know, put every, put all the pieces together, I guess you could say. And so I love that your course is coming out and is gonna be available for somebody like her. It’s not a premium price. Eventually, I know you’re gonna get there, but we can snag you now.

[00:07:10] Jonathan: Yeah, that’s always been the intention really. It’s kind of, Yes, I offer one to one coaching. It is, I wouldn’t say it’s a premium. I mean, you know, you’re talking a couple of hundred dollars a month. My course is $297. There’s no secret there. And yes, it’s beta launch, you know, it’s not perfect. There are lots of fuzzy edges still.

[00:07:29] Jonathan: A lot of it’s in draft but it’s really trying to fine tune it so that it’s perfect for if I do charge higher. And yes, probably next year I’ll run a paid ad campaign and I will increase the price. But my original plan is as you. To get people started. They don’t need to spend thousands of dollars or thousands of pounds creating a perfect website or a, you know, you don’t have to rewrite Facebook or recreate Facebook, rather.

[00:07:56] Jonathan: There are ways to get online from the marketing perspective. I mean, yeah, in some respects. It has changed, obviously because we’ve got more social, Well, we have social media. Yeah. We did have media before but things like, you know, television, radio, advertising, apart from it being exorbitantly expensive, it was really hard to crack how effective it was.

[00:08:17] Jonathan: Yeah, you can give people an offer code, a discount code, but other than that, it was really hard to, or a special phone number to call, but apart from that, it was really hard to actually know exactly how well your marketing budget was working for you. So in some respects, it’s a lot easier. There is a lot more competition out there, a lot of people doing what I do, doing what everyone does, you know, Which is a good thing necessarily.

[00:08:39] Jonathan: Not necessarily, you know, it’s a bad thing to have com competition. It reaffirms the fact that you, what you are trying to do, what you’re trying to sell, there is a market for you. Think about you going to a bookstore, the amount of self-help books out there, for example. There’s just but people still keep writing them.

[00:08:55] Jonathan: And still keep buying them. Yeah. And it’s really it’s a personal thing. From a product side of things, from a creator site tied up for things, again, you know, if you’re a painter, your painting style is gonna be different than somebody else’s. Your photography style is gonna be different to somebody else’s.

[00:09:09] Jonathan: Yeah. Your sculpture work is gonna, you know, it’s, again, art is so personal. Yeah. But you know, it’s just really getting those eyes on you on your product. Now there are the easier route if you like, and just, you know, you can go down the paid advertising and it doesn’t have to be much. It’s easy enough to Get in front of just a blank audience of, for example, employed people.

[00:09:32] Jonathan: You could have employed people, Midwest America, you are gonna have some of those people are gonna be your target audience potentially. You don’t have to pinpoint an audience. I feel like that’s another thing is that people really get head up with finding their niche and honing down onto okay.

[00:09:48] Jonathan: This person, yes, from a marketing perspective, it’s great to have the language they use and to know the person as an individual if you can. But with regards to the group, because your people will find you, and again, if you’re a creator, what you create is going to just. Wow. Some people is gonna amaze some People are gonna go, eh, some people, and they’re not your audience.

[00:10:11] Jonathan: That’s fine. That’s perfectly okay. Right. But again, unless they see you, unless they know you exist, they can’t make that judgment call.

[00:10:18] Kam: know that’s a big thing in marketing right now is the see, you know, you like, you, you know, trust you. And I don’t know if you can kind of speak to that a little bit.

[00:10:28] Kam: You know what? So if we’ve got, you know, somebody who’s created a website or a shop somewhere, which I do wanna ask you about that in a little bit. But if you have somebody who’s trying to get out there and be seen to develop that virtual relationship with people so that people know what is the best way to do that.

[00:10:50] Kam: Like, would you do videos on social media? Would you do. One channel, would you, do you know multiples? Like what is your opinion

[00:10:59] Jonathan: on that? The thing is, as you said before, If it’s somebody who’s working, you know, this is the sidelines, this little side hustle for them, a little project they’re running a family, maybe they’ve got a full-time job as well.

[00:11:11] Jonathan: It’s a question of finding the time. Yeah. So yeah, in an ideal world, you’re on every single social media channel. You’re getting 32nd videos and you’re getting three minute videos, and you’re getting three hour videos or whatever, you know? Yes. You want to be everywhere. You wanna see, be seen on every platform.

[00:11:29] Jonathan: Realistically cuz we’re back in the real world. You know, there are some really good short form videos out there. By short form videos. I’m talking about 32nd Instagram reels. TikTok, you don’t have to be dancing . So there’s a lot of. There’s a lot of stuff out there which people can do. The most important thing about marketing is consistency.

[00:11:50] Jonathan: So you need to set yourself up with a habit if you like. You know, marketing habits really important, so if you can afford to spend five minutes every day doing marketing, Great. You film your 32nd quick tips or your behind the scenes video. This is something I’m currently working on in a little, you know, three tick tour or something.

[00:12:10] Jonathan: Get you your face because people buy from people. It’s not only about the product or your piece of art whatever you’re creating, So get you in a few as well. You could be out for a. You know, you could say, Oh, saw this tree talking to camera, saw this tree inspired me. I’m gonna do something about that next week.

[00:12:26] Jonathan: something. Watch this space. Get em to come back to see what you create. But filming those kind of things, literally film it. 30 seconds, that’s four hours, sorry, four minutes, 30 seconds of your five minutes. You’ve got to then share it to Instagram with a brief description and a couple of hashtags.

[00:12:43] Jonathan: You’ve got TikTok. You can do Facebook. Short stories. You can do YouTube, short videos, YouTube, shorts. You’ve got Pinterest, I can’t remember what it’s called. Is it Pinterest Ideas? I think. Something about that, which again, short term video. Yep. Idea. Yeah. So you can, you know, you can create this and upload it to all these different platforms.

[00:13:03] Jonathan: I would say don’t share from one to the other because they’re in competition, so they won’t like that. But certain, you know, upload each one, get some nifty music in some if you want, and just, yeah, get out there, but keep it consistent and that’s the key. That’s where people pull down.

[00:13:17] Jonathan: If I’m sending stuff out. And it’s not getting any likes. If it’s not getting any views, that’s really disheartening and that’s what stops a lot of people. I’ve been doing it for a week. What? It’s not getting seen. These things take time. You know, so it’s just consistency getting out there, communicating with other people. So if you’ve got other artists you’re following, you can comment on their things.

[00:13:41] Jonathan: You can like them, you can if someone else responded, What’s this? I don’t, I get this. Then you can maybe offer, submit suggestions. Make sure your profiles, your social media profiles are leading people to you. Because if you’re making these comments and you’ve been putting these reels on the short videos, if people like what they see, they want to check you out.

[00:14:01] Jonathan: So again, it’s the path of least resistance ways to get to you, to your products. Courses to your services as easily as possible. So they check out your bio, there’s a link tree link maybe with, you know, a few different things. Or there’s another service and it’s called. Bio or just my bio. That’s it.

[00:14:20] Jonathan: So you can have literally a, an account with their free account with just, these are my current things. I’m working on my items for sale. They’ll click on that and take them to you. So make sure it’s, Yeah. Easy paths to you. That’s really important. Those are no point, you know,

[00:14:36] Kam: those are like amazing tips.

[00:14:38] Kam: Like, where would you recommend kind of getting those videos ready? Do you prefer like Adobe or do you use Canva? Like is there a certain place that you

[00:14:50] Jonathan: like to go to for short form videos? Your smartphone? It’s perfect. Most cameras on smartphones are more than sufficient. And again, you know, it’s putting up barriers.

[00:15:01] Jonathan: If we say, go and learn Premier Pro on Adobe. I remember learning it originally. It took me weeks to get anywhere near half decent. Yeah. So again, it’s more barriers. Yes. Canvas’s good. Canvas’s instant. There is another one I can’t remember. Something else. But a lot of the the platforms themselves have got good enough editing tools.

[00:15:24] Jonathan: You know, you can bring in your text, you can have flashing little gifts and stuff just to try and get people to wake up from their scroll cuz they’re there scrolling. So something just to stand out a little bit. You know, it could be literally a tree blowing in the wind that might be enough to break somebody out of that hypnosis.

[00:15:40] Jonathan: So they don’t have to be all singing or dancing necessarily. Just things which maybe resonate with you, resonate with your ideal customers or clients. So is

[00:15:51] Kam: the goal to get them back to ultimately back to your website or your shop like, is that, you know, you said in your profile, is it ultimately to link them back into one area, one

[00:16:04] Jonathan: space.

[00:16:06] Jonathan: The thing is that people. Are easily distracted, easily confused, and if they find any form of resistance, mentally speaking, they potentially will give up. Obviously, if it’s a work of art, which they’re in love with, yes, of course they’re gonna, you know, they’re gonna do what they can to get more information about it.

[00:16:23] Jonathan: But most of the time I find people just want a single path. Now, I’m not saying you can’t promote multiple things. You know, if you’ve got. Set a 32nd reel talking about, you know, giving an overview of this product, this piece of art that you are working on. Then, excuse me, you can maybe tag it.

[00:16:41] Jonathan: Obviously if it’s products and you’ve got your online shop set up in a way you can tag a product and it will, you click on it, it takes you to that product. So dead easy. But if it’s a, maybe a collection you’re creating or it’s a christmas goods or something then make it clear how people can get there.

[00:16:57] Jonathan: Now, it could be that, you know, next year we’ve got Valentine’s Day, we’ve got Mother’s Day, we’ve got Easter. You know, there’s a number of different things all around the same time as not to say you can’t do. One day you have something which is aimed at Mother’s Day, and one day you have something which is aimed at Easter, and one day just make sure that you have clear paths.

[00:17:19] Jonathan: Where you, where people can buy or find out more information about that specific thing. Okay. So yeah, ultimately they’re trying to get, you’re trying to get them, well, ultimately you wanna sale. That’s our goal really as marketers and salespeople. Cause that’s what we’re trying to do is money in.

[00:17:35] Kam: And that’s, that leads me to my next question. I know that Facebook and Instagram have, like, they have a place where you can set. Sales within the platform. I’m not familiar enough with Pinterest yet to know if that is possible. I’m thinking it is, but I don’t. I think so. I dunno For sure. So would you set that up as well, kind of to limit that, that going to the next

[00:18:03] Jonathan: place?

[00:18:05] Jonathan: I mean, if you think about it from social media’s perspective, Facebook, good old Mr. Zuckerberg, he wants you to use his platform as much as possible. We don’t want you using the rest of the internet. He doesn’t care about that. And so if you are keeping people solely on that platform, In theory, the algorithm, good old, that’s the word of the year, I think is algorithm

[00:18:26] Jonathan: But you, the system is directed at keeping you on their website because if you’re on their website, you yourself, as a user are seeing more of their ads. And again, ultimately it’s about ads. You’re they’re getting paid to run ads. That’s what keeps them going. So the longer you stay on their system.

[00:18:44] Jonathan: Or related systems. So from Facebook to Instagram, potentially. , then the better it will be for them, which in interns should be better for you. So yes, if you’ve got items for sale, put them on marketplace. You know, they say that having links on Facebook to other sites can work against you.

[00:19:01] Jonathan: And it’s unfortunate, but it’s true. We were saying before about, you know, you are not getting notified about things you actually want to know about on, on Facebook because it doesn’t serve them necessarily. So it’s unfortunate that’s the beast that we have to tame. It’s entire, you know, it depends on your marketing strategy.

[00:19:18] Jonathan: I guess. If you are heavily invested, time wise, not only money, but timewise into Facebook, then yes, use that as your, you can, you could use that as your primary platform. Okay. There is enough on social media for people to easily run a business. You don’t need to have our own website necessarily. Yeah, it’s, There.

[00:19:36] Jonathan: Can have you

[00:19:37] Kam: on again just to talk about that .

[00:19:39] Jonathan: I’ll

[00:19:40] Kam: do. And kinda getting back to your course, I know you do have a spot in your course about creating your own website. Now, do you walk people through that? Like, do you suggest a platform what is it that you suggest somebody does specifically to the craft world,

[00:19:59] Jonathan: The section on the module on the course talks people through literally creating a WordPress website WordPress org, not wordpress.com, because that’s a blogging site and it’s different, but it’s named the same because somebody thought that was a good idea. But yeah, it literally takes you through.

[00:20:16] Jonathan: The hosting, the domain name, setting up init. The first part is setting up a landing page, so your homepage, and then maybe a sign up form, sign up to my newsletter to get a behind the scenes video, for example or something of those lines. And then the second part goes into for this module, it goes into content marketing.

[00:20:35] Jonathan: And so actually what content you should have on your website. Seo, search engine optimization way of finding keywords and things as to platforms. I mean, if you’ve got the inclination. Definitely try different platforms. You know, a lot of ’em have got free trials. You can go on there. Try Shopify, try Squarespace.

[00:20:53] Jonathan: Really easy to set up. They, especially Squarespace, some really lovely looking sites out there. Really expense, you know, It’s about 20 something dollars per month. Okay. It’s, it, I think a lot of times, again, it’s a question of priority. I can, you know, you can get cert set up with a WordPress website for $4 a month.

[00:21:13] Jonathan: Actually, no, the first six months at the moment, they’ve got an offer on. So it’s $1, you need $1 to get started with a website. So you’ve got, you know, $6 for first six months. Or you can guess, you can get invested into a different platform. What I like about WordPress is supposedly over a third will web websites online at the moment run or run on WordPress?

[00:21:35] Jonathan: So obviously it’s widely used, but Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I’ve, Yeah. So I’m not sure exactly. It goes up every, well, naturally goes up every year, but yes. Okay. So over a third all websites. And we had, you know, Wall Street Journal for a while was on it. I think one of the BBC websites was on it. You know, it’s established.

[00:21:53] Jonathan: It’s been around for a fair few years. And it’s really malleable. You know, if you decide one day you want to add an e-commerce system on. It’ll adapt. If you want to start running courses on it, you can adapt, you can add these things on. So it will grow as you grow. Like I said, on the course, I just start off with a single page because sometimes just having enough of a presence where people can sign up for more information or ask for your catalog or, you know, just get in touch with somebody is su.

[00:22:20] Jonathan: Yeah. So yeah, it’s there. There are loads of platforms. The thing I like about WordPress, you can change, it’s yours at the end of the day. Yes, you have to pay for the hosting, but if your host company goes down so long as you’ve got backups, then you can take your website and take it to a different company, right?

[00:22:37] Jonathan: If you invest in Square Space or Shopify or GoDaddy’s own one or whoever else that company goes or they do something you don’t like? You have to rebuild your whole website again. Yes. And you know, that can be hours if not days or weeks of work. So I like the fact that WordPress a thousands, if not millions of people know how to develop it.

[00:22:59] Jonathan: So you could go to a freelancer, say, Okay, I’m having an issue here. Can you. Sort that out for me. And then b it can just, you know, take it from this country to that country, or, you know, if you are, if your your focus is more on having an environmentally sound hosting company, then you can change it and find one and Right.

[00:23:16] Jonathan: It will still work. Yeah. It’s good

[00:23:18] Kam: from that respect. You remember a couple, are they called theme builders? The Dvy and Elementor in WordPress?

[00:23:24] Jonathan: I love Element again. Yeah, it’s, you try these things out. Some people annoyingly love Dvy. I just feel like it’s not logical, but that’s me. Elemental is literally drag and drop Unfortunately, Dvy is popular as well,

[00:23:39] Kam: but it is popular and a lot of the WordPress designers that I have worked with are divvy, but I was frustrated with it, I’ll admit, and then I mentor and I’m like, Oh, I love this one.

[00:23:55] Kam: Yeah. I did notice when I got into Shopify and tried that, I haven’t been in the square space yet to try that one. And Shopify was running like this kind of similar to WordPress. It had like a dollar a day or a dollar a month until November. So I jumped on that and I did notice that it sets up fairly easy, but it helped to have some sort of background in design, like.

[00:24:18] Kam: And I think I’m gonna actually talk to my son and have him on the podcast sometime because he set it up, no background in anything 17 year old kid just gets in and wants to set up a shop and I mean, it took him about two weeks. . And, but I think having, you know, some sort of you know, course something to kind of walk you through how to set up, whether you decided to stay in WordPress or, you know, go to Shopify.

[00:24:46] Kam: I think that’s just valuable information to have. Definitely. And it just makes everything function easier. You know, kind of like what you’re saying with these other platforms, if they just suddenly go bye bye, you know, what are you gonna do with your shop? . Yeah. And you know, I like the fact that WordPress can be easily, you know, converted to an e-commerce.

[00:25:09] Kam: And I do have a question though. So one when everybody gets started with their own website and everything, and I don’t know if I wanna get into SEO now and kind of, you know, step into those deep waters, but it is a SEO’s easy. It is, but it’s hard to like kind of grasp at first, but, well, okay.

[00:25:32] Kam: Can you kind of put it into layman’s terms? For Yes, I

[00:25:35] Jonathan: can. I’m waiting for that one. SEO is easy because, you know, if, you know, Okay, SEO is easy if you know your customer or your client because it’s the topics which you’re writing about is an answer to the questions they’re asking. It’s the things they’re looking for in Google.

[00:25:54] Jonathan: Google has recently released an update, I dunno if you know, it’s called something like the Helpful. Update or something. And it’s really the whole point of it is, and I’ve been kind of preaching this to people for years. Give people what they’re looking for. You know, the ultimate perfect page as far as GU is concerned is one page, approximately 2000 words, which has the answers to people’s questions on a specific topic.

[00:26:19] Jonathan: You know, if you go to a website looking. How do I optimize my website for seo, for example, or for Google? Then you want to have all the different sections, different areas of, it could be pulling information from other websites. It could have a short video on it. So again, different types of media because some people prefer videos, some people prefer text.

[00:26:42] Jonathan: And it’s really just, you know, think about a one stop shop. Answer for that question, and that’s all it is meeting the people where they are. Yeah Google is being really clever these days. So in the old days when I started out, you would have a page and. At the very start, you could just put in the same phrase over and over again, and you would rank high on Google.

[00:27:03] Jonathan: Cause you’ve got that phrase on Google, on your page. So it was easy. And then eventually you had to hide it. So you’d have the text within an image, or it would be white font on a white background. So the people couldn’t see it, but it was still there. Unfortunately those don’t work anymore.

[00:27:17] Jonathan: You get blacklisted really quickly. That was.

[00:27:20] Kam: I think Google’s getting smarter than that,

[00:27:22] Jonathan: Yeah, totally. I mean, because their AI is so clever. Yeah. It can see what is AI generated content. So again, people are saying, Oh, this is a really good website. If you haven’t got content, you’ve dunno what to write.

[00:27:33] Jonathan: You can just give this AI bot robot thing, script thing your topic and it will give you content, but Google will see it and know it. So it’s gotta be real, it’s gotta be authentic. So it’s, you know, Again, we’re delivering from the heart. From the soul, Yeah. And trying to help our target audience.

[00:27:52] Jonathan: That’s the best SEO you can do is to give people what they want. So obviously,

[00:27:58] Kam: do you think video is better over text? Do you think text is better? Do you think both Should be

[00:28:04] Jonathan: on a website? From an SEO per, Well, from both actually. Yeah, Both. I mean, because again, Google is so clever that it can listen to your words and it will know what you’re talking about.

[00:28:15] Jonathan: But some people will, you know, they’ll be doing their thing while they’ll have a video going in the background or they’ll listen to a podcast while they’re going doing stuff in the background or have that on the background while you’re doing something. A lot of people have it more accessible.

[00:28:29] Jonathan: People want things easily. That’s really the key. However, I mean, I love just having an article and I will ro scroll down, make sure it’s laid out properly. The format is key because, you know, some people won’t wanna read 2000 words, so you want to have your subheadings, which kind of summarize what that topic’s about.

[00:28:47] Jonathan: So if, again, if it’s about seo, Think about ways of breaking it down. Think about the questions that people are gonna be asking, and then you have a paragraph outlining the answer to that question. So there are good ways of formatting a page. So it’s not just, you know, a 2000 word monologue if you like.

[00:29:04] Jonathan: It’s broken up. Yeah. Bit of video in there as well. Bit of a variety. Some relevant images. Yeah. Think about trying to get, I guess, something for everyone in some respect.

[00:29:15] Kam: And the module in your course. Does that kind of walk through how to do like good seo

[00:29:21] Jonathan: looking at it practice? Yeah, I mean, in all honesty, it’s pretty much what we’ve just talked about now a little bit longer, but yeah, I mean, it goes through finding keyword like again, you know, you can say, I know my client.

[00:29:34] Jonathan: I know my customer. Yeah, but do you actually know what they’re putting into Google? You know, it could be if you’re creating a painting, are they actually going on Google and searching for I want a landscape painting? Or are they going on there and searching for best ways to decorate a new house? Or, you know, think about their actual needs.

[00:29:54] Jonathan: It could be that you have an article now about. Best position for your painting in a house. So think about yeah, what they want as opposed to what you are selling. And again, I think that’s a lot of thing a lot of people have make this mistake when they’re creating a website is, I am this and I do this, and I’ve been doing this for 22 years and it’s about me.

[00:30:14] Jonathan: And it’s not about you. It’s about. The person who’s coming to your website, they’re looking for X, Y, and Z. You know, how can we help them to find those answers? It just so happens you are the person who has X, Y, and Z, so you can meet their needs. But it’s really about, yeah, what are they looking for?

[00:30:30] Jonathan: And the module really Yeah. Goes into, there’s certain tools which yes, you can pay a thousand pounds for them, but there’s also some free options as well. Or there’s, you know, you can get 20 keywords as opposed to 500 keywords. But 20, if you’ve got 20 high value keywords, that’s great to start with.

[00:30:45] Jonathan: And then things like Google Analytics, there’s a few tools that Google provide for free, which are great. It give you such great insights. Sorry, I’m just looking at it now. Hot Jar as well. Hot Jar isn’t really about seo, but it’s about, it’s again, it’s kind of a plugin or script which you can have a number of different websites.

[00:31:02] Jonathan: Which shows you exactly where your website visitors go on your website, what they’re looking at, if they’re scrolling down, if they’re clicking on things and it actually shows you a recording of the people. It’s really spooky to see. I had somebody last month, I think I’d sent out an email to my newsletter list.

[00:31:19] Jonathan: And I could track, I could knew exactly who it was because the time they opened the newsletter coincided with this hot jar recording so I could see what page she’d gone through. And she went right down to the bottom of the page and then scrolled halfway up and then went down and it was like 20 seconds.

[00:31:35] Jonathan: So I got out, I got in touch with her and said, Was this something you were actually looking for? Cause it, it would look like they were just looking for a piece of information or something. It was really good, really useful. So yeah, it was, its little insights like that. There’s a lot out there, which is a lot out there, which is nonsense.

[00:31:51] Jonathan: But there are some good, you know, there’s some diamonds in the rough if you like. Yeah. So quality bits of tools that you don’t need huge amounts of knowledge or time to set them up. But they can give you those insights, which you can then, okay, now I can create an article because I know. My people are asking for this, and this, so you can then meet their needs a lot more easily, which is what SEO is about really.

[00:32:13] Jonathan: It’s just finding what people are searching for, what people want and what’s popular as well. And then thinking also about. Where they are in the journey because you know, you have client intention or visitor intention, whether they’re just researching, whether they’re actually looking to buy how far in the journey they are.

[00:32:32] Jonathan: So we go into that a little bit

[00:32:34] Kam: as well. And I suppose I should probably tell my listeners if you don’t already know SEO is search engine op optimization. So basically you’re trying to get Google’s attention or really like YouTube’s attention too, cuz YouTube is another search engine that you can utilize.

[00:32:52] Kam: But seo, it is a marketing thing. Like you do have to know how to do it, to get people to your site, to get them where you want. And yeah, Jonathan I think especially with, you know, if you’re going to create your own site, you know, just making sure wouldn’t you say just being just like you were saying with the social media, just showing.

[00:33:18] Kam: You know, your content and you don’t have to do it every day or you know, that kind of thing. But just making sure that you are almost like Google knows that you’re in there, like doing something and, you know, trying to attract attention, I suppose.

[00:33:37] Jonathan: Yeah, certainly. I mean, one way obviously is having a blog. I’m personally not a fan of having a blog. You’re right in that it shows Google that your website is active, but I feel that sometimes just having maybe a. 10, 12 article pages. So again, going back to the 2000 word pages of really, if you like, cornerstone content. So these are the things, the topics which your people are really invested in.

[00:34:02] Jonathan: These are the things they really wanna find out about. And then every week you can go around each of the, well, you know, have one per week or one per month. Just review it and. Is there something new I can add to it? And we’re talking, you know, sizable chunk, not just a few word changes or adding a new video to it.

[00:34:18] Jonathan: So you it’s work in progress and you’re just looking, again, SEO research. Ah, okay. People are asking this question. I’ll add that question and answer to my page. That way obviously you’re getting fresh or updated content but also you’ve got those keywords and phrases, which are people are looking for from an SEO perspective.

[00:34:36] Jonathan: And yeah it’s, you know, Yes, it’s, we want Google to see it because we want Google to rank our page highly. If you’re on page two somebody I spoke to earlier said, What was it they said if you’re on, Oh, where, what’s the best place to hide a dead body on page two of Google? So because, yeah.

[00:34:52] Jonathan: Nobody goes off. Very rarely do you go then. So page one of Google, if you’re getting these pages and they’re, you know, well formatted and they’re getting good content, it’s up to date, then that’s gonna be great for your, you know, conversions, your sales potentially.

[00:35:06] Jonathan: Okay.

[00:35:06] Kam: Now along that same vein People need to have a lead magnet to create an email list.

[00:35:15] Kam: And I’m gonna be doing another episode on building an email list, but can you kind of speak to that with the lead magnet, you know, creating one with, you know, good SEOs so you’ve got, you know, attraction for that. I mean, that’s obviously going to create, you know, Traffic to your site also, but can you kind of speak to that?

[00:35:41] Kam: I know that’s also a module on your course too

[00:35:44] Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, it’s really important. I think sometimes people. Create newsletter lists or lead magnets is kind of an afterthought, whereas really it should be before you even get your product out there, cuz you’re building an audience. So lead magnet is really, Yeah, it’s a hook.

[00:36:01] Jonathan: It’s to get interest, it’s to get those emails. You. Want to have something which is going to help people take a step up your journey. So you think about a value ladder the top of it will be to buy your most expensive masterpiece or to invest in your course. Excuse me. But lower down on the ladder are things which have a lower psychological barrier to them because, you know, it doesn’t cost anything to give you my email address, but it’s something, it’s a step forward where it’s my, if I wanna buy your mini course, that’s $27, so it’s a little bit higher up.

[00:36:35] Jonathan: And then your signature course could be $500 or so. Again, we’re talking kind of incremental steps up. So lead a lead magnet is really an entry level into that. And yeah, it. Obviously gotta be something which is going to attract people. People go, Oh yeah, that sounds interesting. If you’re an artist, like I said before, it could be, you know, sign up to get my gallery dates for the next six months or upcoming gallery dates.

[00:36:59] Jonathan: You could think about offering a 10% discount. You could behind the scenes, I think personally, behind the scenes, Emails or videos or both is really valuable because if somebody’s investing art Yeah, they probably are investing in art, the artist as well. Yeah. So I think, again, making that connection on a personal level is really valuable.

[00:37:21] Jonathan: So yeah, once you’ve got. Something then you, there’s not necessarily, yes, you’re right in the lead magnet does lead people to a website, but you don’t need to have a website to have a lead magnet. There’s services like Mail Alight, MailChimp, where you can just have a landing page for free within that, they can sign up to that.

[00:37:39] Jonathan: So it’s not essential. And that was one of the things I is had issues with my course. Do I tell people how to build a landing page and mail a light? Or then a website with a, So yeah it’s kind of a similar thing, but. If you’ve got a website, then yes, it makes perfect sense to have a landing page sign up form.

[00:37:57] Jonathan: And then with that, they sign up to get your newsletter. It shouldn’t end there because the minute they see you, the minute they’re attracted to your lead magnet, that’s probably one of the key points when they’re most, most open to buying potentially. So think about a nurture sequence as well. What I say to people is kind of, The three to five days following on, sometimes even longer.

[00:38:22] Jonathan: Following on from that initial lead magnet email update thing, you send them daily, daily newsletter. Not really newsletter, but it’s a daily email automated sequence. And you just give them a little bit more of an insight. So you could, from a creator perspective, it could be perhaps talking about gallery exhibit you’ve had recently, or whole exhibition or, you know, things you’re working on at the moment.

[00:38:45] Jonathan: You could just highlight few products, definitely your story your past, what brought you into doing what you do and then lead them down to a path where they can buy. And again, thinking about a low value item. Probably it depends because it’s really hard to generalize on these things because, you know, if you are, if your art naturally sells for $10,000, then a low ticket item might be $5,000 or you know, it’s really, I said it’s really hard to generalize, but initially you’re kind of giving people a root in and it could be, I don’t know, maybe You’ve got limited edition prints of something as opposed to an original artwork.

[00:39:20] Jonathan: So that would be maybe a natural progression from there. And then, yeah, drip feeding every week or every month you commit to it, you give them that newsletter. Because at some point, not everyone’s obviously gonna want to buy every single time that newsletter goes out, but at some point, what you say will resonate with them.

[00:39:37] Jonathan: Yeah. And they will be in a position where they’re thinking about a new piece of art or they’re just had a win on the lottery, or, you know, this, the planets are in alignment and everything fits. And now’s the time I can invest. So you are there, your newsletter is there. Oh really? I’ve forgot about Cam.

[00:39:54] Jonathan: I’ve realized she’s doing that. Yeah. It’s just, again, building that consistency, making it a habit. A lot of marketing, I feel is just, you know, this is what I’m holding myself accountable to do, and I will do this every day, or I will do this every week. And just making sure you keep going. No matter if no one’s listening, you do it for you as opposed to the one person that’s listening or the thousand people that are listening.

[00:40:16] Jonathan: So that’s the struggle for a lot of people I think. Well,

[00:40:19] Kam: and it does help. And that is one thing that I do appreciate with you. For my listeners who don’t know, we, I mean obviously, but we were both in a, what would you call that? Amy Porterfield had like a oh five day not a masterclass, but well, no,

[00:40:40] Jonathan: it was kinda a boot camp maybe, but it was, Yeah. Again, low ticket offer. Yeah. With, again, you know, that’s part of her lead magnet. We signed up, probably signed up for a free. Workshop thing, and then that led into the low price bootcamp and then she upsell upsold us from there. So yeah.

[00:40:58] Kam: And, but that’s how Jonathan and I connected and you created this amazing Facebook group and has kept a lot of us accountable who was in. Bootcamp and that’s very helpful. And I would, I

[00:41:16] Jonathan: was very cheeky doing it, to be honest. Well, it was a golden opportunity.

[00:41:21] Kam: We’re all in there for a reason and you know, we have, like, you created the Facebook group, the community, and it helps keep us accountable. I mean, we peep tabs on each other. Were able to network with each other.

[00:41:35] Kam: There was also another member that created a whole spreadsheet out of people who wanted to do podcasts and wanted, was willing to be interviewed, you know, wanted to start a podcast, had one needed, you know, so there was all of that. So in all of this, you know, the marketing the networking, you know, all of it.

[00:41:56] Kam: I think it helps. Just to keep, have somebody that, to keep you accountable, but also to have that community and know like, yeah, we’re all doing different things, but we’re all trying to ultimately get to the same finish line. It’s just, it’s all gonna be different. Right.

[00:42:14] Jonathan: Yeah it’s the journey. Cuz I think, and a lot of people, I hear this from a lot of people, is that I tell my partner this and they’ll nod and they go Uhhuh, but they have no idea.

[00:42:23] Jonathan: Or I’ll talk about lead magnets to my friend and he’ll be like it, it’s not the same. It’s a different world. It really is. Yeah, I think we are all on the same journey. And some people are further ahead. Some people have been doing it for years. Some people it’s brand new and sometimes the people who are brand new can bring new insights.

[00:42:40] Jonathan: You know, it’s fresh pair of eyes. So I think everybody’s got something valuable to offer. Yeah. And, but it’s really, yeah, that accountability is. Because I do see a number of people out there who have great ideas, really super services. And it’s just the fact that it, you know, it does get a little bit lonely sometimes.

[00:43:00] Jonathan: Yeah. You’re trying to promote to an audience, which you can’t see a lot of the time. And yeah. That’s that accountability, that’s something I’m doing initially as part of the, my course for next year. I’ll probably offer that as kind of an upsell. So as a bolt on if you like, having one-to-one on a one-to-one, but a group session maybe once a week just to just to hold people accountable to answer any questions they have as we move forward.

[00:43:24] Jonathan: But yeah, it’s really valuable to find those people. Yeah,

[00:43:28] Kam: I think you’d be amazing at it. So I definitely. Being in the community. You know, thank you for doing that. I Thank you. Wouldn’t have the podcast if it wasn’t for you. So it’s hard and it does get lonely and, you know, trying to be present and make sure that you have content and that it’s something that people can rely on.

[00:43:51] Kam: And there, you know, it does take work and. But that’s, it’s all part of being virtual too, and this remote, you know, wonderful internet that we’re now all a part of. If people want to build an online business, whether it’s crafting or whatever it will take effort to it’s kind of like I liken it to, you know, instead of loading all of your product up into the vehicle, driving to the show, setting up all of your product so that people can walk by and either buy it or not buy it.

[00:44:29] Kam: It’s similar to that. It’s just. Here you can basically do everything in your pajamas, . Yeah. And you don’t always have to tear down and, you know, move and pack up and set everything up. You can have it all set out. So it’s just trying to figure out how to do that the best way possible that’s going work that

[00:44:52] Kam: So that’s hopefully is what this podcast does for people.

[00:44:56] Jonathan: Yeah, no, it’s good. Thing is, as you said, that, you know, you have that social interaction when you go to a craft fair or you have an ex exhibition. It’s that even if you don’t see any, even if you don’t speak to anyone, you still see something.

[00:45:09] Jonathan: And again, it’s that validation, isn’t it? And to know that we are doing okay what we’re putting out there is liked or appreciated or approved of, if you like. So that’s the one area which is really. Challenging for people because you know, you’re putting out stuff out there and you think it’s the best thing you’ve ever done, but nobody’s clicking on it or nobody’s liking it, or nobody’s buying it.

[00:45:29] Jonathan: So that can be really challenging. I think.

[00:45:33] Kam: Definitely. For sure. Well, I want to get eyes on your course. I think that it’s gonna be amazing and I appreciate you coming on so much. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you to come on and hopefully I can have you back and you can kind of elaborate on where the course is going and some more modules. Cause we didn’t even get through. A quarter of your modules. I think ,

[00:45:58] Jonathan: there’s 10 modules to start with. So I think at the moment, as you know, it’s in beta launch. , so it’s very jagged, A little bit rough around the edges.

[00:46:06] Kam: Jump on it now. People,

[00:46:08] Jonathan: Yes. Yeah, getting quick before it’s perfect and doubles in price, but I will be, I mean, I’ve got a couple of bonuses which I’m going to be working on.

[00:46:17] Jonathan: So things like adding an e-commerce store a launch process as well. So if you are, you know, if you are getting a big exhibition ready or you’re gonna create a course, Then there’s certain things which, you know, you don’t just open doors say, Oh look, buy this. It’s a natural process. It’s a nurture, you know, going back to nurturing.

[00:46:35] Jonathan: It’s kind of a nurture sequence into a launch. So go through that a little bit. And then course creation as well. If people are looking to teach their own skills online in some shape or form, then again, going through WordPress, Sorry, do

[00:46:48] Kam: you have a waiting list for the e-commerce?

[00:46:51] Jonathan: I’ve had a few people who are interested. It’s, I’m just trying to get this, the main course. I wouldn’t say finished because I think it’s gonna be a work in progress for some time, but getting it to a stage where I’m happy for it to to go live in the spring. As in live as in, you know, proper official course. Yeah. So that’s really gotta be my focus for now.

[00:47:08] Jonathan: But yeah, there’s a number of people, because again, you. You think about drop shipping if you are, like you were saying before, if you’ve got somebody who’s looking after family. Has a full-time job and wants to earn money. Something like drop shipping is a perfect opportunity. So you could have, we were talking before, you know, $1 to set up a website.

[00:47:27] Jonathan: You don’t even need any stock. You could just have these designs, use a drop shipping company. You’ve got products that you can sell and you can earn, you know, how many dollars per item. So there’s some really good ways out there where yes, you need to work on it. It takes time and energy. But for practically no money whatsoever, you can start a business and you can earn money.

[00:47:48] Jonathan: It’s not, yeah, it’s not a make money while you sleep thing by any means. I don’t think that truly exists. But there are easier ways of making money than, you know, working nine to five or working in a factory or whatever. So it’s, yeah, it’s an option. .

[00:48:03] Kam: Well definitely tell people where to find you in your course and I will be sure to link it in the show

[00:48:12] Jonathan: notes. Thank you. The course, Well, the website’s, the build hub.net. And the course that this is my said, my whole build and grow, it’s called, it’s to, to literally build and grow your online business. It’s the build hub.net/build. So nice and easy. Again, passive lease resistance, making it nice and easy for people to, to find.

[00:48:34] Kam: Love it. Thanks again, Jonathan. I appreciate you coming on so much. Thank you. I will see you soon in the c in the community, so

[00:48:43] Jonathan: Yes, indeed. Right.

[00:48:45] Kam: Thanks Jonathan.

[00:48:47] Jonathan: Thank you.